From: Geert Lovink <geert@xs4all.nl>
Message-Id: <199803051823.TAA05772@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: Publish my reply
In-Reply-To: <34FEE85B.DBA6DE6A@eunet.yu> from ANDREJ TISMA at "Mar 5, 98 07:00:59 pm"
To: aart@EUnet.yu (ANDREJ TISMA)
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:23:35 +0100 (MET)

your reply was on nettime
but i unsubscribed you
too many nettimers complained
about your serb nationalist opinions
you are indeed a propagandist
not the first time, actually

bye, geert

Censorship on Nettime - BRAVO Geert
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:31:18 +0100
From: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@eunet.yu>
Organization: Happiness
To: Geert Lovink <geert@xs4all.nl>, american_express
<american_express@irational.org>
References: 1

Geert Lovink wrote:

> your reply was on nettime
> but i unsubscribed you
> too many nettimers complained
> about your serb nationalist opinions
> you are indeed a propagandist
> not the first time, actually
>
> bye, geert

BRAVO Geert,
So I am unsubscribed (clensened) from the Nettime list. Because expressing my personal opinion. Bravo.
And all those Albanian separatists whom you have published on Nettime - aren't they propagandists too, and nationalists too? Bravo you fighter for democracy and independent media. Ha, ha. You tell me. Be shamed.
Now that You have clensened Nettime from Serbian view of things, now you and your sponsors (USA, CIA, NATO, Soros etc.) can begin the operation number two - put embargo and drop bombs on Serbs. That is all you know.
You are talking about necessity of dialogue, and you don't allow it.
Bravo.

Who complained about my "nationalistic" opinions? Only one person, that hysterical Richard. Maybe some others sponsored by Soros, as Branka Davic, or Drazen Pantic. Now they can be calm and earn some more filthy green dollars. You too. Bravo, you great man, you misery of a man.
Anyway, THANK YOU for keeping me on the mailing list for about a year. It was really a nice period for me.

Andrej Tisma

Subject: Kosovo: short reply to all
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 00:15:27 +0100
From: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@eunet.yu>
Organization: Happiness
To: american_express <american_express@irational.org>, eyebeam
<eyebeam@list.thing.net>, Nettime <nettime-l@desk.nl>

Dear e-mail correspondents,
I am sorry I had to tell You about my concerns for the situation in Kosovo, especially recently, but in fact it lasts already about 15 years now. I didn't want to disturb You, just wanted my voice, and of many people in Yugoslavia, be heard. I simply felt a need to react to last events in Kosovo.

Branka:
I really do not hate Albanians. You are right, we are living with them in the same city, and they are totally free and living well in our town, also in Belgrade and everywhere I have seen them in Yugoslavia. And I am happy for that. I just don't like Kosovo Liberation Army and its terrorist activities. As I know the same opinion about KLA was given recently by American, Austrian and German state authorities too. They qualified KLA as TERRORISTS, not only me. I am for peaceful solution too, without bloodshed on any side.

Richard:
Why not political issues on Nettime. Wasn't this net always a little bit about politics, reporting about different demonstrations and protests? Or You are against politics just in this case, when You have no arguments for Your claims? For me reports of some American and CIA influenced organizations and separatist media are not arguments. And why not Serbian view of things. Don't Serbs, the biggest population in Balkans, have the right to tell once their view?

Drazen:
Thank You for Your generosity for giving me the right to have my own opinion. I can assure You that this is opinion of millions of Yugoslav citizens. And it also deserves to be heard, isn't it?
Best wishes and PEACE, Andrej

I sent this material to all Nettimers. Since I am disconnected from the list I can not follow your possible reactions to this. But please, if you think it is unfair to exclude somebody just like this, please react.

But be careful, tomorrow Big Brother could unsubscribe YOU too.
Peace, Andrej

!!!!!
Since I am violently cut off from the Nettime I'll be grateful if You send this to Nettime list asking them to publish it as a document. It would be important for me, but also for people to know what hapened to me and what can happen if they have different opinions than the Big Brother moderator. Except if you are woried you could get UNSUBSCRIBED too.

Thanks

Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 01:06:21 +1100 (EST)
From: francesca da rimini <gashgirl@sysx.apana.org.au>
To: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@eunet.yu>
Subject: Re: <nettime> Kosovo: short reply to all
In-Reply-To: <199803050800.JAA18352@basis.Desk.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980307010359.8580B-100000@sysx.apana.org.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0

if i can't read first hand from-the-front politcal reports on nettime, where else can i find such information

this is precisely what's unique about this mode of communication

it's totally cyber, without being self-referential to the whole cyber wank tendency in lists

To: nettime-l {AT} basis.Desk.nl
Subject: <nettime> Re: Serbian 'concern'
From: Kevin Murray <kmurray {AT} mira.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:48:35 +1100
Sender: owner-nettime-l {AT} basis.Desk.nl

While there is a strong electronic network of diaspora Albanians (see bit.listerv.albanian), it is unlikely that the Kosovars have the capacity to relay images and reports through Internet media. For this reason, a list like nettime seems to have an important role to play in encouraging a wider dissemination of information.

From: "Robert Simon" <robertms {AT} euronet.nl>
To: nettime-l {AT} Desk.nl
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:15:16 +0000
Subject: Proper nettime topics

David S. Bennahum wrote:

> Nettime ought to relate to cyberspace in some way. If
there are interesting uses of information technology relating to the situation in Kosovo, this would be appropriate to Nettime. Otherwise, let's just start discussing whatever we feel like.<

I can't disagree with this strongly enough. The fundamental way nettime relates to "cyberspace" (in Kantian terms, nettime's condition of possibility) is that the discussion is taking place in/on/over/by virtue of the internet, not that there are people writing about or discussing "interesting uses of information technology", possibilities which are available to me [in far different ways] at my local newspaper stand, or over a conference telephone line, or over dinner with friends, or by pasting little notes to a bulletin board.

What is more of an interesting use of information technology than to (be able to) hear (read) a list participant offer a spontaneous, non-official, local (self-avowed "Serbian") view (I'm referring to A. Tisma here) of the situation in Kosovo? And to be offered very serious critical reponses to this (F. Rodriquez for one); to have the opportunity to take part in the discussion?

No I don't think nettime should become a list exclusively for the discussion of regional politics, and I can't imagine that it will become that. And do most of us read everything posted to the list anyway? I'm used to seeing lots of different related and unrelated postings happening here all at once, and I'm always doing my own filtering.

I doubt if threads concerning tennis or tropical fish would have much of a life here, list moderators notwithstanding, and I do support strategic 'official' intervention against wild flamewars, fascist propagandizing and protracted, high level noise, not because I can't ask someone to shut up or use my own delete button, but because I see a certain minimal and hopefully transparent level of 'official' list maintainence work as being necessary. In this case however, the postings on Kosovo have remained quite civil and to my mind informative, on all sides. Moreover, nettime isn't being monopolized by Kosovo discussions, and the opportunity is always there to raise some related issues specifically regarding net practices and possibilites (which is what I'm doing now).

But let's face it, if the list can't on its own keep roughly "on topic", which is to say, remain viable as a fluid community of shared interests--whatever these may be--then it is no longer viable as a list.

Robert Simon

Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 02:41:10 +0100From: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@eunet.yu>
Organization: Happiness
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: robertms@euronet.nl
Subject: THANKS!

Dear Mr. Simon,
Just today, few hour ago, I found Your article "Proper nettime topics" of March 5, on the Nettime archive site. In that article You were defending my right to write on Kosovo in the Nettime list, but on that day I was brutally excluded from the Nettime list. That is why just today I was able to read your article. I want to thank You now for supporting me in that discussion, actually my right to express my own views.
I was UNSUBSCRIBED without warning, on March 5, by Geert Lovink.

From: "Robert Simon" <robertms@euronet.nl>
To: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@EUnet.yu>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:44:27 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Subject: Re: THANKS!

The opinion I expressed on nettime concerning your postings has not changed. Very sorry to hear that you were unsubscribed from the list.

Robert

Subject: Re: Censorship on Nettime - BRAVO Geert
To: aart@EUnet.yu (ANDREJ TISMA)
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 03:32:13 +0100 (MET)
From: "Pit Schultz" <pit@uropax.contrib.de>
Cc: geert@xs4all.nl, abroeck@v2.nl
In-Reply-To: <34FEFD85.191DE94E@eunet.yu> from "ANDREJ TISMA" at Mar 5, 98 08:31:18 pm

right decision, geert. i think we are no therapy station for wanna-be nazis. in the end chauvinism just attracts more attention than some average art work. so andrej had his fun, finally. /p

Pit Schultz wrote:

> right decision, geert. i think we are no therapy station for wanna-be
> nazis. in the end chauvinism just attracts more attention than some
> average art work. so andrej had his fun, finally. /p

Pit,
I don't know you and you don't know me. If you knew me better you would never tell such thing about me. For 20 years I am active in the international mail-art movement building a world without frontiers, the world where it is not important who is of what nationality. In frame of that cosmopolitan movement I gave significant contributions, and it can be found in many books and studies on that art movement. We organized many international congresses, me also, here in Serbia, we met all over the world (New York, Paris, Milano, Stockholm, Amsterdam) , many artists from all over the world visited me here in Novi Sad and I would like you to ask those people am I nazi, or chauvinist. Excluding somebody from the mailing list just because of his opinion is nazi way of solution. Dialogue is always the right way.
Stay well,

Andrej

--

ANDREJ TISMA is Novi Sad (Yugoslavia) based artist, art critic and curator. Since the early '70s mail-artist and networker. Founder of The Institute for the Spreading of Love (1991) and Embargo Art campaign (1992). HOMEPAGE: http://members.tripod.com/~aaart/index.html

Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:15:00 +0100 (MET)
From: "Pit Schultz" <pit@uropax.contrib.de>
In-Reply-To: <35013BF3.1AAFC4B4@eunet.yu> from "ANDREJ TISMA" at Mar 7, 98 01:22:11 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b]
MIME-Version: 1.0

Andreij,

well, good that we do this dialogue in private. anyway i always like to take back such words, spoken out in a kind of accumlating flames. the problem is that the historical constellation is problematic, same as the situation now, and years before i was not reacting while bosnia was bombed etc. so it is also a kind of insecurity of the people outside, to stay on the wrong side, or no side at all. noone wants to be in favor of war. identity and culture wars, especially at the background of dispersed cultural groups, mikronations like slovenia, all that is not very easy to understand from a distance.
the little flame war later was as provocative and is understandable as it was a learning situation for many nettimers. so. i guess it would be good to wait a while. there are many ways to subscribe to nettime,
as far as i can say it was not a public exclusion, just a way to calm down the waves.
so, as you see, one tends to say nasty things easily on the net.. i try to avoid it as good as i can normally..

best regards
/ pit

Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:39:12 +0100
To: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@EUnet.yu>
From: Andreas Broeckmann <abroeck@v2.nl>
Subject: Re: Censorship on Nettime - BRAVO Geert
Cc: geert@xs4all.nl, spiridon@EUnet.yu, drazen@opennet.org, rvdbri@pi.net

dear andrej,

>And all those Albanian separatists whom you have published on Nettime -
>aren't they propagandists too, and nationalists too?
...
>Who complained about my "nationalistic" opinions? Only one person, that
>hysterical Richard. Maybe some others sponsored by Soros, as Branka
>Davic, or Drazen Pantic.

actually, i complained as well, because i think what you are presenting is nationalist crap that you should be ashamed of. i have respect for opinions differing from mine, but i have no respect for this kind of deliberate ignorance. your government is responsible for a lot of the blood-shed in xYu in the last years, and even if there is more than one side to this, and even if the albanian terrorists killed two serb policemen ... the serb terrorist government is about to wage war against the albanian population in kosovo after suppressing them for decades. during WW2, the germans used to have these ratios that 10 civilians should die for every soldier killed by partisans.

i don't need to read your ranting on nettime to know that there are people who hold your opinion. there wouldn't be these kinds of conflicts if there weren't.

-a

btw, branka is not a soros-sponsored us-agent yet, but we hope that she will be soon ... ;-)

Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:10:07 +0100
From: ANDREJ TISMA <aart@eunet.yu>
Organization: Happiness
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Andreas Broeckmann <abroeck@v2.nl>
CC: geert@xs4all.nl, spiridon@EUnet.yu, drazen@opennet.org,
rvdbri@pi.net
Subject: Re: Censorship on Nettime - BRAVO Geert
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Dear Andreas, thanks for writing to me. I am sorry we can not discuss this publicly, because as you know I am cut off the Nettime list, without any warning. This seams a little bit fascistic to me.

Now to answer to you letter:
Firs of all there were not killed jut two policeman but there were killed 50 people - policemen and CIVILIANS in last few months by the Kosovo Liberation Army. I don't know which democratic coutry would tolerate that.

I don't know if you ever heard that other xYU republics in the beginning of conflicts with Yugoslavian Army also had their paramilitary troops, like Albanians now, and that they were armed from abroad. So the situation is very similar, and I don't see any responsibility of an federal army to act against separatist paramilitary terrorists. And I am not ignorant, nor stupid, nor craping. This is the plain truth. And you just listen to lies of your German expansionist propaganda. It is well known what Germans and Austrians did in the history to innocent people and nations.
If Serbs are "suppressing" Albanians for last 50 years, how come that their population is growing so much all the time with families with more than 10 children in them What do they eat, how could they survive such a terror? In my town Novi Sad Albanians are one of the richest people, living well, and I have friends among them. So don't you crap. And stop talking to me in such a tone, but get some more truthful information.
Concerning Branka Davic, she works for Soros on some of their projects, so You again have false informatrion. Just ask her.
Andrej